From newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.ecf!utgpu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc Wed Apr 22 12:04:17 EDT 1992
Article 5169 of comp.ai.philosophy:
Path: newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!news-server.ecf!utgpu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mips!munnari.oz.au!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
>From: Hakki_Kocabas@kcbbs.gen.nz (Hakki Kocabas)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Peano and the commerce of ideas and repr
Message-ID: <5995.111921218@kcbbs.gen.nz>
Date: 21 Apr 92 01:39:55 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 229


  
> Assert for the purpose of disputation that "real mathematical objects"  
> exist independent of the physical world.  
>   
> Hence  Integer-3 for which "3" is a physical representation, exists  
> independent of the physical world.  
  
Before you go and ask the following questions:  
  
>   
>  Does Integer-3 know that it is an integer?  
>  Does Integer-3 know what its successor is?  
  
Please ask yourself:  
RMO = Real Mathematical Objects  
PW  = Physical World  
  
  
In your use, can you say that a reality corresponds to   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' if it is true and we can assert it ?  
If yes, so you have a use for 'RMO exist independent of the PW'  
  
Do you use 'RMO exist independent of the PW' as an explanation of   
the use of the words ?  
  
How did you learn the expression 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
Has anyone explained it to you by refering to sensations, images or  
thoughts that accompany hearing 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
Can you construct an application of this-symbol/these-symbols ?  
Is this a definition about a symbol ?  
  
If you use it as a mathematical proposition, can you prove it in  
mathematics according to certain rules ?  
  
In your use of 'RMO exist independent of the PW', can you say nothing   
which happens will ever make me/us call it false or give up ?  
  
If 'RMO exist independent of the PW' is a rule, do you know how is it used ?  
  
Do you want to use 'RMO exist independent of the PW' as a projection ?  
  
Do you want to make 'RMO exist independent of the PW' independent of   
experience ? So you want to lay down 'RMO exist independent of the PW'   
as a foundation which provides a form of representation ? a method of   
description ?  
  
If you don't marvel at the fact that the propositions of arithmetic  
(e.g. the multiplication tables) are "absolutely certain", then why  
should one be astonishted that the proposition   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' is so equally?  
  
Can you say "I don't have to change my opinion that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' " ?  
  
I don't know what you mean, tell me exactly what you mean, or else  
I may be cheated.  
I need to know how it is used, do you know how to use it ?  
  
An expression has any amount of use, then how if I tell you an expression  
'RMO exist independent of the PW', can you have the use in your mind in an   
instant ?  
  
Is this similar to nonsense or to something that is surprising ?  
Are you inclined to call this nonsense ?  
  
Is this nearer to the ordinary case or is it nearer to the absurt  
case ?  
  
Is that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' a rule about the use of a   
symbol or symbols (say RMO/exist/independent/PW)?  
  
Was 'RMO exist independent of the PW' first introduced because of   
experience and now you have made it independent of experience;   
a rule of expression for talking about your experiences ?  
  
Is this 'RMO exist independent of the PW' a paradigm/an-object-of-comaprison  
and you want to use it as a model ?  
If yes, is it useful ?  
        is it useless ?  
  
Do you use 'RMO exist independent of the PW' to construct concepts ?  
  
Do you use 'RMO exist independent of the PW' to describe objects ?  
  
Do you want to fix and teach 'RMO exist independent of the PW' as a technique 
  
Do you want 'RMO exist independent of the PW' to serve as a paradigm   
which is timeless ?  
  
Do you use 'RMO exist independent of the PW' as a standard of comparison   
as a paradigm for the technique ?  
  
Do you want to make up your mind what you want to do with   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
Before you answer the following questions don't gaze at a form of  
words forgetting my asking you what is done with it. Don't gaze to  
your own soul to see if two expressions have the same meaning but  
gaze how you use it.  
  
In your use of 'RMO exist independent of the PW' is it meaningful to   
affix to 'RMO exist independent of the PW' by definition ?  
  
Does 'RMO exist independent of the PW' have its sense in a system of proofs ? 
  
Do you want this sentence 'RMO exist independent of the PW' to work ?  
  
This shows what you do with 'RMO exist independent of the PW' :   
Have you chosen 'RMO exist independent of the PW' to get  
to a certain point ?  
  
You don't know what 'RMO exist independent of the PW' means ?   
Want to try again ?  
  
Do you have grounds for doubting that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
Can you say that experience always proves you right that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW'?  
  
Does 'RMO exist independent of the PW' state part of the picture you form   
to help you in the judgement of various situations ?  
  
Do you need to satisfy yourself by saying that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' to be able to act ?  
  
If I pronounce the opposite of that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' .   
would you regard me as demented ?  
  
Can you say: I cannot give you any grounds that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW', but if you learn more you too will   
think the same ?  
  
Does it make sense to doubt that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
Can you doubt that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
What is it like to discover that 'RMO exist independent of the PW'   
was a mistake ?  
What could a mistake here be like that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
Is this 'RMO exist independent of the PW' supposed to be an empirical   
proposition ?  
  
Is the hypothesis 'RMO exist independent of the PW' possible ?  
  
Can you say if I am wrong about this 'RMO exist independent of the PW',   
I have no guarantee that anything I say is true ?  
  
Can you say if you are wrong about this 'RMO exist independent of the PW',   
you have no guarantee that anything you say is true ?  
  
What would the practical effects of this belief   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' be ?  
Is it difficult to imagine why anyone should believe the contrary ?  
What could induce you to believe the opposite ?  
Can you imagine the opposite of 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
Is this proposition 'RMO exist independent of the PW' must be solid for you ? 
  
Is this 'RMO exist independent of the PW' a fact that you are certain of to   
be certain of the meaning of your words ?  
  
Can you say that it stands fast for me and many others that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW'?  
Is it possible for you to doubt that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ? Why ?
Could you try to doubt that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
Can you say everything speaks for 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
Can you say nothing against 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
If you doubt that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' how would your doubt   
come out in practice?  
If it makes no difference at all enjoy your doubt !!!  
  
What are you doing in believing that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
What are you believing if you believe 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
Can you say that one can only believe that 'RMO exist independent of the PW', 
and even that one can't believe ?  
Why do you believe that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
    Have you reasons ?  
    Do you need reasons ?  
On what ground do you believe that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
What does this belief 'RMO exist independent of the PW' consist in ?  
  
Why should it be possible to have grounds for believing that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW'if it isn't possible to be certain ?  
  
Can you say: nothing in the world will convince me of the opposite  
that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
Can you say: for me this fact 'RMO exist independent of the PW'   
is at the bottom of all knowledge ?  
Can you say: I shall give up other things but not this   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
Can you say: I can't be wrong about it that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' 
Can you say: I cannot depart from this judgement without toppling  
all other judgements with it that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
Can you say: I cannot be making mistake about it that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
If your use of that 'RMO exist independent of the PW'   
is not to be a merely an observation about grammar, can you give   
the circumstances in which this expression 'RMO exist independent of the PW'  
functions ?  
  
If you doubt that 'RMO exist independent of the PW',   
would you have to doubt all sorts of things that stands fast for you ?  
  
Can you say that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' is a hypothesis,   
which as you believe, is again and again completely confirmed ?  
Are you not ready to let anything count as a disproof of this  
proposition 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
  
Here you have arrived at a foundation of all your beliefs, what  
would it be like to doubt 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
What would you believe if you didn't believe that   
'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
So far you have no system at all within which this doubt might  
exist ? You have arrived at the rock bottom of your convictions ?  
and one might almost say that these foundation walls are carried by  
the whole house ?  
  
Suppose it wasn't true that 'RMO exist independent of the PW' ?  
How should you imagine the mistake being discovered ?  
  
If you know that 'RMO exist independent of the PW', do you also know,   
or do you only believe, that no future experience will seem to contradict   
your knowledge ?  
If yes that is after all a decision. It is possible that you will  
act against it.  
  


