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Article 1865 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zeleny@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.tech,comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Zeleny (was Re: Searle
Message-ID: <1991Dec4.150117.6133@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 4 Dec 91 20:01:14 GMT
References: <1991Dec2.195705.12427@milton.u.washington.edu> 
 <1991Dec3.122946.6107@husc3.harvard.edu> <1991Dec4.020531.6725@milton.u.washington.edu>
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In article <1991Dec4.020531.6725@milton.u.washington.edu> 
forbis@milton.u.washington.edu (Gary Forbis) writes:

>In article <1991Dec3.122946.6107@husc3.harvard.edu> 
>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

MZ:
>>It is completely clear to me that in writing these words I communicate with
>>other people.  I assume that at least some members of my audience will
>>treat my words as meaningful, and interpret them in a way that would
>>result in certain mental states.  Since mental states are private, and
>>hence mutually incomparable, I assume that to the extent that I succeed in
>>conveying any meaning to these people, the nature of this meaning must be
>>mind-independent. 

GF:
>I'm having some trouble understanding where you are centered.  Is it your
>contention that machines cannot have mental states?  Could I substitute
>"brain states" for "mental states" in the above quote and still have you
>agree with it?

Machines don't have brains, either.  However, they can, in some sense, be
made to model brain states; my argument is designed to show that this
wouldn't automatically result in them having mental states.

GF:
>Consider Searle's Chinese Room.  It seems to me that the room must
>enter certain states during the activity of converting input to output.
>How is this different than what you describe above as communication?

What is "the room"? how is it individuated?  Until you can demonstrate that
it can be construed as possessed of agency, I shall persist in denying its
ability to communicate.

GF:
>If your complain is that the Chinese Room is rule based then could you
>give me some indication as to how you feel words convey meaning?  Do you
>ever take steps to verify that the meaning has been conveyed?

Words certainly can't convey meaning simply in virtue of being associated
with some rules; this was the point of my Putnam-Davidson argument.

GF:
>(geez, I am beginning to sound like a logical positivist.  It certainly
>isn't my intent.  I'm merely trying to understand your position.)

It might help if you tried to appreciate the reasons for the failure of the
positivist program of reducing all scientific discourse to observation
sentences.

>--gary forbis@u.washington.edu


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: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
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