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Article 1829 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.tech,comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: Zeleny (was Re: Searle
Message-ID: <1991Dec3.122946.6107@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 3 Dec 91 17:29:44 GMT
References: <12538@pitt.UUCP> <1991Dec2.110629.6077@husc3.harvard.edu> <1991Dec2.195705.12427@milton.u.washington.edu>
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In article <1991Dec2.195705.12427@milton.u.washington.edu> 
forbis@milton.u.washington.edu (Gary Forbis) writes:

>In article <1991Dec2.110629.6077@husc3.harvard.edu> 
>zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:

MZ:
>>Unlike internal representations like sense-data, abstract objects like
>>propositions, expressed by our words, or numbers, denoted by them, can be
>>meaningfully used in communication with those not enjoying privileged
>>access to our mental processes.

GF:
>It is not clear to me that the productions we call speech carry any meaning
>other than than assumed by the listener.  I assume the productions are
>intended to be meaningful and search for a meaning.  It is by alligning
>the internal representations of the meaning I used last time I heard similar
>productions within my worldview that lead me to produce the utterance "What
>do you mean by 'meaningfully used in communication with those not enjoying
>privileged access to our mental processes'?"

It is completely clear to me that in writing these words I communicate with
other people.  I assume that at least some members of my audience will
treat my words as meaningful, and interpret them in a way that would
result in certain mental states.  Since mental states are private, and
hence mutually incomparable, I assume that to the extent that I succeed in
conveying any meaning to these people, the nature of this meaning must be
mind-independent. 

GF:
>It is through interaction that I come to believe I know what others mean when
>they say the words they say.  I see no reason to believe something could
>produce the necessary behavior to indicate understanding without understanding.
>I proceed on the assumption that differences in meaning will come to light
>through continued use.

If you persist in talking about "differences in meaning", you will thereby
undermine your own subjectivist thesis.  Your point is not unlike that of
the Logical Positivists, who attempted to reduce the language of science to
observation sentences.  You will fail for the same reason they did.

>--gary forbis@u.washington.edu
>(am I the only one who finds big signatures annoying?)

this one is dedicated to you:

'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
: Qu'est-ce qui est bien?  Qu'est-ce qui est laid?         Harvard   :
: Qu'est-ce qui est grand, fort, faible...                 doesn't   :
: Connais pas! Connais pas!                                 think    :
:                                                             so     :
: Mikhail Zeleny                                                     :
: 872 Massachusetts Ave., Apt. 707                                   :
: Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139                                     :
: (617) 661-8151                                                     :
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'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'


