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Article 2356 of comp.ai.philosophy:
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>From: zeleny@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy,sci.philosophy.tech
Subject: Re: Machine Translation (was re: Searle's respons
Message-ID: <1991Dec21.164621.6848@husc3.harvard.edu>
Date: 21 Dec 91 21:46:20 GMT
References: <45303@mimsy.umd.edu> <1991Dec21.000014.6836@husc3.harvard.edu> <1991Dec21.111459.2302@arizona.edu>
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In article <1991Dec21.111459.2302@arizona.edu> 
bill@NSMA.AriZonA.EdU (Bill Skaggs) writes:

>Mikhail Zeleny:
>>Simple.  Correct translation is a matter of finding an approximate synonym;
>>synonymy is a semantic relation; if machines can't compute semantic
>>relations, they can't translate anything.

BS:
>Synonymy is a semantic relation, but it may correspond (by "coincidence")
>to a syntactic relation, for example when translating from English
>to Pig Latin.  So the conclusion does not follow.

There are two issues here.  One is formal: for first-order languages,
semantic relations can't be determined by syntax pace L\"owenheim-Skolem.
On the other hand, the structure of natural languages is not likely to be
first-order.  In this case, simpler considerations like that of Putnam's
permutation trick, come to bear on the issue; refer to a parallel thread.

On the other hand, you might wish to maintain that the semantic properties
of two natural languages may be isomorphic, inducing a syntactical
isomorphism; or perhaps that in the absense of such isomorphism, the
synonymy transformation might be coextensive with some syntactical
manipulation.  The fallaciousness of this claim can be seen even in cases
of closely related languages like English and French, by considering, e.g.
the French word `conscience', ambiguously translatable as `conscience' or
`consciousness'.  Furthermore, the question of figurative meaning transfer
(e.g. as evidenced in the use of metaphor, irony, etc.)  is rightly
considered to be intractable not only by purely syntactic, but even by
semantic means.

MZ:
>>The fact that semantic relations are non-recursive is a direct consequence
>>of G\"odel's Second Incompleteness theorem.  In any language containing
>>elementary arithmetic, as well as a recursive semantic relation "...
>>expresses ...", we may apply the arithmetization trick to the said relation
>>with predictable results.

BS:
>This argument has been conclusively refuted many times.  I don't
>feel like writing it out all over again.  

Not only is this spectacularly arrogant claim made in error; it is also
remarkably hypocritical, given the vehement demands for self-contained
elementary explanations you made at the time of our initial exchange
several weeks ago.  Incidentally, if you really believe yourself to be
capable of refuting this argument, I urge you to publish: Thomason and
Putnam, the authors of different versions thereof would be happy to
consider your rebuttal of their views.  This is a genuine conundrum, so to
arrropriate the words of John McCarthy, if you can solve it, you'll become
well known for more than invective.

>	-- Bill

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